Most of us indulge in reality TV here and there, so this week’s episode should excite those who enjoy the strategic gameplay of Survivor or the unfiltered drama of The Real Housewives. Veronica Pope, a seasoned writer, executive producer, and showrunner with a wealth of experience working behind the scenes of our favorite reality shows, joins us this week to unpack how reality shows create compelling, unscripted narratives that resonate deeply with audiences.
imPRessions Season 2 Episode #14 Transcript
Jenn: Hey, Kalli
Kalli: Hey, Jenn.
Jenn: So a quick question for you. What’s your favorite reality TV show?
Kalli: Oh, that’s tough. I actually really like the No Reno Demo because it makes me feel like I can do all these things in my house without having to knock down walls.
Jenn: Yeah. So you’re more into, like, the home design, those types of reality TV shows.
Kalli: All about home design and like, organization because I watch them and feel like I organized even though I just watched them. What about you?
Jenn: Oh. So many. Um, well, first of all, I love paranormal ghost shows because I think they’re so funny. So I absolutely love watching those reality shows. But I also love a good Bravo Housewives. Vanderpump rules drinks-throwing spectacle. Who’s cheating on who? I mean, like, you just gotta love that. Plus, back in the day, I was a very, very, very big rock of love. Flavor of love. And I don’t know if you remember those shows, but I do remember those. My God, I rewatched them during the pandemic because what else was there to do?
Kalli: Oh, wait. Watch the Tiger King. That was what there was to do. So you made the right choice and made the right one. Yeah.
Jenn: Well, the reason I ask, is because there are so many shows today, reality TV and non-scripted TV has really taken off. In fact, it’s like most of what we watch on TV, most of what’s on, you know, mainstream networks and streaming channels and platforms and things like that. So today, we’re actually talking with Veronica Pope, who has a lot of experience as a producer for reality TV, and she’s going to talk to us a little bit about the back end of the marketing and how they find their stars and kind of just how these shows come together. So I’m really excited to kind of dive into that.
Kalli: Awesome. That sounds great. Let’s dive in. Reality television often gets a bad rap for its perceived lack of authenticity, but beneath the surface lies a rich tapestry of storytelling techniques that can rival even the most meticulously crafted dramas. From survivor strategic gameplay to the unfiltered drama of The Real Housewives and the never-ending surprises during Chip and Joana’s home renovations. These shows offer a unique lens through which to explore the human experience. So for today’s episode, we encourage you to grab your popcorn and settle in as Veronica Pope, writer, executive producer, and showrunner with extensive experience working with major television networks including HGTV, Food Network, Travel Channel, History Channel, and The Magnolia Network, and owner and executive producer behind Evergreen Creative Media, joins us to explore the nuances of storytelling within the realm of reality TV. Veronica, thank you so much for joining us today.
Veronica: Thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to talk about reality television.
Jenn: Oh my God. One of my favorite topics. I think that this is something all of us can shamelessly say that we indulge in. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to work in non-scripted and reality TV.
Veronica: Absolutely. I think a lot of people in reality have an interesting story. It’s a small little world of producers and crew when you really kind of get down to it. We all know each other, we all end up finding each other on similar projects. It’s kind of a standard thing that you’ll be working with a production assistant one year and five years later they’ll be your boss. It’s a small little world, and we all kind of got here in interesting ways. But I started in journalism for my undergrad. I was doing a lot of nonprofit, actually, kind of non not for profit in educational spaces. I was running a program with the Annenberg Public Policy Center, and we formed a partnership with Comcast Cable, kind of out of the blue, but kind of as a mechanism to kind of figure out how civic education could kind of translate to a talk show, especially kind of for younger kids. And so we made a TV show in Denver called Denver Student Voices. It was like a studio talk show, like public access television. We were testing to see if that was an area where we could come, we could kind of bring back, I don’t know if you guys remember, like Wayne and Garth, public access. Oh, yeah. Um, kind of TV, right? But it was really fun and it was a great opportunity. And I did not think I would end up in television. Um, and that was kind of where I started. All of a sudden, we were making a talk show, and it kind of just kept going from there.
Kalli: That’s amazing. And yeah, I think those types of shows were something that we all remember growing up. So, and now, like, it really feels like almost all of our favorite shows these days are the non-scripted and reality TV. You know, it’s so easy to get hooked on. I know Jenn is a Big Housewives fan. I live on home renovation and organization shows because it makes me feel better and feel like I did something even though I just watched. So tell us, how do you find these compelling storylines or character arcs that get us hooked with unscripted content?
Veronica: I think there’s so much history and reality television now when we’re kind of looking back at like, what is working, what people attach to, how we kind of create these moments in reality television that people really identify with. And, and I think that that just kind of keeps circling to find new ways to tell those stories, new ways to kind of bring those people in. I mean, casting is a really big deal. I think in my 20ish years in television. hat’s a big number to say, but I think it’s probably been that long. I mean, there’s a lot of really, really amazing chefs out there. There’s a lot of very, very stylish people out there. Right. But the right person to tell the story, the right person that’s going to give you insight, it’s going to make you laugh, going to make you, think about things that you’ve never thought about, thought about, maybe introduce you to places that you’ve never seen or inspire you to do something that you’ve kind of always dreamt about, but never thought you could do. I mean, the casting is really the core of it, and finding the right person to tell that story is, I think, what makes a story interesting. I think it’s what makes people relate to a story and what makes it resonate. So, casting is a huge part of reality television. We could spend months, sometimes years, casting the right people for the right project. It’s a big deal and there’s a lot that goes into that, but it’s really kind of finding the people that are excited to tell their story have interesting pieces of their story, and kind of helping them craft that in a way that’s going to translate well to television.
Jenn: Is there a criteria that you have, or can you talk a little bit about the casting process, like from a very high level, because you say it could take years to find the right person? What goes into that? And then what if you really like somebody or you actually don’t like somebody, but other people on your team really want to move forward with them or vice versa? Like how do you find a middle ground there?
Veronica: Yeah, my personal experience is really in a lot of the home renovation, the historical renovation, the real estate space, some process shows, food shows, and much more lifestyle, I would say, and not so much the kind of Housewives shows, things like that that we talked about earlier. But I think if we’re going to take an example, maybe in kind of a lifestyle show centered around people doing a renovation project, right? It’s a lot of hunting for those people in the first place. I think if we kind of know what genre we’re looking for. There’s usually a huge net that we cast at the very beginning to talk to everybody who might be doing something in that space. So if it’s a renovation project, we’re looking for probably a couple, at least two people. That’s kind of a secret thing for us. It’s not so secret, but we want the talent to be able to talk to someone on camera, just talking to the camera by themselves all day long. Doing this project isn’t super interesting. So we need a couple of people in the project. We need an appropriate timeline. So it’s going to get done in the timeline that we have with the network. And we and we need it to be in an area that is kind of interesting. We need the project to be interesting. We need to know that they’ve got the budget and the resources to help get through that project. We have to know that they’re excited to do it right. I think the excitement and the attention to detail kind of comes out with them really wanting to share this process with the world. And so there’s kind of all of these big picture requirements that we’re trying to like, kind of figure out at the beginning who these people are, where they are, how it’s going to work, what the project is, who the players are. And then, yeah, from there, we’re kind of continuously funneling it down within your own team to see, like, who’s kind of connecting with these people the most, who’s really kind of feels like they’ve got a great story to share. And then a lot of it isn’t up to us as producers per se. We’re submitting these the casting options to the network, and they’re the network is then kind of doing all of these checks against all of the things that they have going on in-house to do. They have a project that’s kind of similar to this. Do they have talent that they’re launching, launching in a similar area? Are they working on a separate series in? So they’ve got all of these massive considerations as you kind of just narrow this funnel down to your winning talent. And yeah, I mean, I’ve been on projects where that has taken over a year. Like, wow, these aren’t quite right. Let’s go back. Let’s look again. Oh, well, it’d be great if we could do this, but we would really love this kind of project. And you’re just kind of constantly recasting that net and funneling down to see if you can find the perfect people to tell that story.
Jenn: Right. I want to, so I know that you said you personally mainly work on the home design shows and things like that, which, by the way, Kalli’s your girl if you’re ever in need for that. Okay, I heard.
Kalli: I told you when we first chatted, my neighbor’s doing a ton of, like…she’s redoing her whole house, and I’m just, like, sitting at my window watching. It’s cool, like we’re friends. So it’s not creepy, I promise. When she came over to tell me she was doing the work, my eyes lit up like it was Christmas.
Veronica: I think that’s the secret, right? Like people love to know what their neighbors are doing. They love to know what’s going on in other people’s houses. Yeah, there’s motivation to. Maybe you could do something in your house. There’s escapism. Like, I don’t want to think about my house today. I’ll think about your house today. There’s a lot of super fun things, I think, that come with that real estate renovation kind of model of shows. They just make people happy. It’s my favorite bit.
Jenn: Absolutely. And then on the flip side, people like the Bravo esque Love Is Blind reality TV shows that are, you know, full of drama and, you know, affairs and relationships and things like that. So from that perspective, when storytelling and producers are putting these cast together and things like that, how do they strike a balance between authenticity? Because this is reality TV, right? So these are real people in their lives, but also that entertainment factor as well.
Veronica: Yeah. I think as producers, our job is always to try to tell the most accurate story we can, but there’s obviously limitations when we don’t have cameras rolling 24 hours a day on most shows. I mean, I think shows like Love Is Blind and things like that are a little different because it’s a very controlled environment. But in a lot of these shows, it’s making the most of your story and giving the opportunity for those maybe dramatic moments to play out in a way that we can capture effectively and dynamically and in a compelling way. So I think that’s a lot of what producers do. And I think sometimes that’s misconstrued and, well, it’s all scripted, and it’s all fake, and it and it’s I don’t personally see it that way. I think it’s giving people the opportunity for their lives to play out in a way that we can capture and show. But yeah, I mean, sometimes it’s setting it up at a fun, loud bar because, you know, that things are going to get a little crazy, or it’s following up with somebody after a really hard day because, you know, they’re emotional. It’s finding those opportunities to let. The stories play out in a way that I think are the audiences love. But it is it is a process. It is something that the producers really need to follow along and find their opportunities and, and make sure the cast is kind of along for the ride and saying what they think might come next or what they’re feeling. Um, and kind of just writing that way along with them.
Kalli: That makes so much sense. And brings me kind of to my next question is, how do you…. You’re creating such exciting events, and like you said, whether it’s somebody in a bar or more dramatic situations. How do you kind of maintain those things and maintain viewer engagement and interest without relying on those traditional scripts, especially because in these situations it can be very unpredictable.
Veronica: It’s kind of happening live. Yeah. I mean, I think we talked a little bit about casting, and I think casting sets a great base for a story. You at least you get some insight on kind of what motivations might be what like kind of personal motivations might be. So you have an idea of who these people are. I personally think that it’s a beneficial to invest in your talent, to really kind of get to know them to the extent that they want to get to know you. I think making television like this is a really personal thing, and I think trust and relationships are actually a huge part of that so that they, the talent, can kind of trust you to open up. And they trust you to tell their story, to share their story. But I think it there’s so many pieces of that storytelling process that we follow so that you can get a clear picture of what’s going on. And so it is it’s giving those quiet moments where we can be reflective and they can kind of just tell it like give us updates on what they’re feeling and how things are going or what. Maybe, um, some of their challenges are in, in where we are in the story, and it’s following up on things that you never expected. I mean, I think that’s also a piece of the storytelling process, is that you might have an idea of what your story is, and it’s going to change ten times, 20 times, 100 times before you get to the end. And it’s really kind of just giving a little bit of time to explore how it’s changing and where we’re going and where we think we’re going to end up by the time we get to the end of it. So some of it is just being in the now, some of it’s a little anticipation, but yeah, it’s kind of just following the story where it goes. And I think I would hope that most talent that I work with that I know, a lot of my colleagues have worked with that. By the time you get to the end, it is an actual it’s a it is a really honest portrayal of the story. Um, but you’re kind of always chasing it, right? You’re kind of always trying to figure out what it is.
Jenn: Very true. And to kind of piggyback off that, I want to ask you about the role of editing. So especially like, you know, reality stars, right? They’ll say- if they screw up, or fans don’t like them. They’ll blame the editing. They’ll say, I had a bad edit, or that was edited and not how I said it or something, right? There’s always an Andy Cohen reunion where somebody, somewhere, is like, that’s not how it happened. So what can you tell us? Like, really, what is the role of editing in telling these stories? And I don’t know, is there a post-production editing to enhance a storyline in reality TV? Can you debunk that myth for us or not?
I don’t know that I can. I would argue that I know it is easy. I think everybody I think you can see it in some shows you watch. I think you can suspect it in others. I think it’s a great conversation fodder. Sometimes. I think sometimes you can manipulate a story to make somebody maybe appear nicer than they are, maybe not as nice as they are, to maybe tweak the details of stories. For sure. I mean, you do have to be realistic that like we have for an hour long episode, we have 44 minutes to tell the story. Sometimes the nuances of the story, we simply don’t have time to build in. And so I think you have to be aware of that, that like, maybe it’s not the whole story on the other side. I would argue that a lot of times, I mean, we have it on film. Maybe it’s not exactly how somebody would remember it happened, or maybe it doesn’t actually put them in the best light. But I think people have a lot of their bringing their own kind of story to the mix. And then seeing it actually our camera feels different. So, I think on both sides can be manipulated a little bit. Sometimes it is just how it happened. And that’s not always the most comfortable thing either.
Kalli: You know what’s funny? I remember my mom always used to tell me because I have a sister, and like, we would both go to her when we were arguing, and she’d be like, there’s your side and the truth. And it’s like, even with this, it’s like there’s his side, her side, and then we have it on film. I see types of things and people remembering things differently and just, again, creating really unique experiences. You know, can you share a time when you had to navigate some type of unexpected development or challenging, while you’re creating these stories because, whether it’s a housewife finding out some bombshell that nobody was expecting or even, you know, I know for the home, the home renovation shows, it’s like, oh, we opened up a wall, and there’s like termites or whatever. They’re like, oh yeah, there goes your budget. You know, you can’t have walls. There’s always that unexpected moment. How do you navigate things like that? Because, like you said, the show was already in production. You have a wall open, like what happens?
Veronica: Yeah. I think there’s kind of an idea in production that if everything’s going perfectly exactly how you set up, it’s not going to be a great show. Because, I mean, if I can predict what’s going to happen from talking to you in casting and then it’s exactly how it turned out, we haven’t delved into your story enough. Life has surprises. Life has challenges. I mean, I work in the renovation space a lot, and that process is challenging. There are always things that you’re going to run into that you don’t expect, and that is just part of the process. I think that good producers just run with that, and “is going to change? what does it mean, and what comes next?” Yeah. A simple fix on a front porch ends up taking eight months. Like we just couldn’t fix it. And every time we went back, we kind of had a different process and a different approach. And this sweet family was just trying to keep their gorgeous Victorian house porch from falling off the front of the house was the fear. It wasn’t actually that serious by the time we figured it out, but it just kept going and going, and it’s just that process of also checking in and how are you feeling and what are you going to do next and what are we going to do and what do we think our plan of attack is here. And they get to guide it, right? They’re telling us their story. They get to figure out what they’re going to do about it. They get to figure out what comes next. And it’s really just kind of following all along that I mean, that’s a little bit more average, obvious in the home renovation space. But I have worked on shows where I’m halfway through. Maybe somebody doesn’t want to do the show anymore, and we have to figure out how to tell that story with, I mean, a maybe a side character is just not going to be involved anymore. And what are we going to do about that? And who are we going to bring back in to kind of help us finish the show? And what do those relationships look like? And I think the, the best thing to do is just tell the story honestly. How are we going to get from here to the end? And that’s just part of the process, right? That’s part of life. That’s I think that’s what makes reality so great, is that these moments happen on television. They happen in your real life. We just kind of go with it.
Kalli: The kind of brings me to my next point, actually, especially when you’re dealing with people’s relationships and the stories and information that they’re willing to share and the things that they’re willing to do. How do you handle the ethical considerations that go into, you know, shaping these narratives? How do you deal with privacy and consent? When you’re creating the story, editing and then determining kind of what ends up on air.
Veronica: My personal take on that is, I mean, the truth matters, but kindness goes a long way. And I say that from a standpoint that I’ve worked with amazing people with incredible dry senses of humor for like we’ll take, for example, and the and they’re a great person, and they have an amazing sense of humor, and we’ve got these funny jokes. But then when we get into the edit and we don’t necessarily see the setup and we don’t necessarily see the relationship and we don’t necessarily see kind of those interpersonal dynamics of this couple. Maybe the jokes come off mean-spirited, and they come off rude, and they make. So I think there’s I think there’s editing to be done where if you’re looking at something and all of a sudden you’re like, well, that’s not how that person meant it. I mean, hopefully, as a producer, you’re there, you know, the talent you have, you have kind of connected with them, you know, their personality. I think there’s kindness in an edit that is super important. We don’t ever want to make somebody misrepresent somebody to make them look worse than they are. We don’t make them look like a version of themselves that they wouldn’t recognize. So I think editing has to be honest, but it has to be very kind because we’re following these people along for hours and hours and hours of their life. I mean, I think in a renovation show, maybe, I mean, we’ve got 200 and 300 hours of content to get down into 40 minutes. So I do think you have to be really careful in how you present people in that. You’re kind of picking moments that are honestly reflective of their personalities. On the other side, I think you have to be careful of not I’m not making somebody look better than they are. To be perfectly honest, I mean, some people have stern personalities or have a really specific approach, and if that’s honestly who they are because they’re just kind of blunt, I think that’s a fair way to present somebody. I think you have to edit from honesty, and I think people appreciate that. I think it makes the project so much better. If your audience trusts you that you’re telling them an accurate story. Of course.
Jenn: I mean, it is called reality TV at the end of the day. And although we know there’s some push and pull in terms of maybe some storylines and all, for the most part, I think most really, truly believe that what they’re seeing is the real lives and real circumstances of people. So, it’s very important. One thing that’s very important also in reality TV, a lot of criticism from fans and whatnot, is ensuring that there’s diversity and representation in the stories, in the characters and the people that are portrayed in non-scripted television. How do you personally go about ensuring that to make sure that there’s representation across, you know, all races, genders, sexual orientations, things like that?
Veronica: That’s a great question. And it’s a challenging thing in television because I would perhaps say that it to some extent, it’s a trust issue. I think there’s not a ton of production companies per se that maybe really specialize or maybe historically have it really specialized in telling more diverse stories. And so I have found that as a producer, if I’m coming into a black family doing a renovation in Detroit, there’s a sense that you need to earn their trust, right? I’m a white girl living in Milwaukee, and is a black producer perhaps better to tell that story? I mean, it very well. Could be, but I think there is a level of trust like, do you understand my perspective? Are you able to kind of tell my story accurately? I think there’s pieces of that that I think the entire television industry would benefit from as more people telling more diverse stories. I think we’re seeing that in films. I think we’re seeing that in television. I think you’re definitely seeing that in reality TV, that diverse storytellers are necessary to tell diverse stories.
If that starts in your crew and your producers and your crew, then you have an easier way in of telling really authentic and really diverse stories. And I think it’s something that the television industry needs to address. I think if we can continue to pitch more diverse stories, if we can continue to kind of work with networks to cast more diverse stories, I think it’s better for our audiences. But it is. It is something that is a challenge. I mean, you’ll see it in the numbers that you’re not really getting a ton of diverse storytelling, and we’re not getting a ton of diverse talent sometimes in some of these operas. And I think it’s important. So I would say that it’s important to kind of expand diversity on all areas of television right now on screen and all.
Kalli: You know, I definitely agree with that. And, looking ahead, what kind of trends do you see or do you anticipate in the evolution of storytelling and especially in non-scripted and reality TV?
I mean, it’s been a weird few years for television, for sure. We’ve had strikes, we’ve had Covid, we’ve it’s been challenging. But I think in terms of what viewers want to see. I think viewers are really looking to find content that they can kind of watch with their families, and that sounds a little earnest, but I think we can all kind of look back and remember, I mean, I was just reminded of TGIF programming when we were kids, right? Like the idea that your whole family gets together and watches the show together because it’s funny and it’s interesting and it’s like a good time, a good way to spend time together. I think we had movies like that that were kind of touchstones for us. I think the future of reality television is a little bit more of that, like concepts where like, people can really kind of come together and watch. I think people are looking for that connection right now. I think there’s some awareness of that, that we kind of need to bring a new generation of viewers into television. So I think there’s some awareness of that. And also, I just think joyful television is going to be a trend. I think people are looking for it. I mean, the fun social experiments, the things that make you text your friends like, oh my gosh, did you see this? The things that are surprising and interesting and unexpected. But I think in a fun, positive way, I think people are looking for happy stories. I’m an optimist, but I think that’s a trend.
Kalli: I would love it if that’s the trend. I think it would be amazing and just what people need these days. Well, Veronica, thank you so much for coming on today and feeding into our non-scripted and reality TV addictions. Now we have, of course, such a better explanation or understanding of how the magic happens to our listeners who love tuning in to our non-scripted podcast. Don’t forget to tune in every other Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts, and shoot us an email at impressions@pollackgroup.com with guests you want to hear or just to say hi! We can’t wait to hear from you.
