Fun fact: consumers purchase a product or trust a company due to the psychological markup in their brains. In fact, experts study how our brains respond to marketing stimuli to understand consumer habits. In today’s episode, Jenn and Kalli are joined by Roger Dooley, author of Brainfluence: 100 Ways to Persuade and Convince Consumers with Neuromarketing and frequent Forbes contributor. Tune in to understand the basics of Neuromarketing and where the interesting concept will take our field next.
imPRessions Season 2 Episode #20 Transcript
Jenn: Hey, Kalli. Happy Wednesday.
Kalli: Hey, Jenn
Jenn: I wanted to ask you a question about marketing. When we think of marketing, I think a lot of what resonates consumers is maybe the creativity behind the campaign. So we’ll see, like a really cool commercial and think, oh, wow, that play on words was really unique. Or we’ll see a print ad not to date myself, but they’re still, you know, out and about. Maybe we see a print ad with some really compelling creative colors and, you know, imagery that really speaks to us. I think people mostly identify marketing and correlated with a creative aspect. But today’s episode, we’re going to talk a little bit more about the science behind marketing. Do you ever think about the brain in terms of marketing? When you’re looking at an ad, or you’re possibly coming up with something for a client, do you ever think, like, how is this going to resonate with them from a neuromarketing standpoint? Or do you mostly think, is this ad creative?
Kalli: I mean, I think it’s a mix of both, but a lot of times it’s creative. What’s attention grabbing? But that kind of does go back and go hand in hand with what are people going to think about it? What’s how is it going to make them feel? You know, is it something that’s going to completely turn them off or something that’s going to, you know, excite and delight them?
Jenn: Exactly. So today’s guest is an expert in neuromarketing. He’s a keynote speaker. He’s written books on it. He writes for Forbes. He really, really knows his stuff. So I think he’s really going to explain it to us and our listeners to really how to understand neuromarketing a little bit better, both as a consumer and as a marketer.
Kalli Well, awesome, I can’t wait.
Jenn: Neuromarketing is transforming how businesses connect with their audiences by combining neuroscience and marketing to understand consumer behavior. At its core, by studying how the brain responds to marketing stimuli, neuromarketing uncovers the subconscious factors driving decision making from brand loyalty to purchasing habits. In today’s episode, we’re joined by Roger Dooley, author and international keynote speaker. Roger wrote a global bestseller on today’s subject matter called “Brainfluence 100 Ways to Persuade and Convince Consumers with Neuromarketing”, and frequently contributes to Forbes. Whether you are a seasoned marketer or just curious about the latest innovations in the field, today’s conversation is packed with insights that can revolutionize your marketing approach. Hi Roger, thank you so much for being here today.
Roger: Well, thanks so much for having me on the show, Jen.
Kalli: So, Roger, before we really dive into everything, I think it would be really helpful for our audience to have a better understanding of what is neuromarketing and how it differs from traditional marketing.
Roger: Well, I use a rather broad definition of neuromarketing, which is using our understanding of how the brain works to market better. And so really encompasses a couple of areas. One is the use of specific neuroscience tools and related tools, things like EEG to measure brainwaves, fMRI to measure brain activity, eye tracking to see where people are looking, and so on, and also using behavioral science. The insights from people like Robert Cialdini with his seven principles of influence, as well as the many cognitive biases that we’re all subject to. That’s my rather broad definition. And I think it is really just not different than marketing. It is a way of expanding your marketing and making it a little bit more effective, instead of relying on intuition. You know, the sort of Don Draper insight that, wow, this is what consumers are going to respond to. We can use these tools to get a more scientific based approach.
Jenn: So I read your book, “Brainfluence”, and Kalli got a copy as well. And for our listeners, if you check our copy right in our episode description, we will have a link that you can purchase it. I want to talk a little bit about something that you stated in the book. In “Brainfluence,” you state that 95% of consumer decision-making happens without conscious awareness. So, can you explain in more detail how our brain reacts to marketing stimuli even when we aren’t aware it’s happening?
Roger: I think 95% numbers and my numbers from Gerald Altman of Harvard, who felt that he needed a number to show how much of our decision-making happens non consciously versus consciously, and nobody really knows what that percentage is. I’ve seen numbers as high as 99.998 or something crazy, but I think it’s fair to say that the vast majority of our thought processes and decision-making processes are non-conscious. You know, think of a trip to the supermarket every now and then. You may stop at an item to examine its label and, you know, read the ingredients and so on, nutrition info. But that isn’t how you make most of your purchases. You never get out of the supermarket if you did. Instead, you rely on what some call system one thinking, which is our default mode of thinking. It’s just a sort of intuitive process. You buy something because that’s the same brand you always buy. You buy one another brand because it’s on sale and you don’t really care about the brand and so on. And so all of this is happening mostly unconsciously. You aren’t analyzing the decision. It’s only occasionally that we go into that system two mode where we’re comparing labels and such. And the key insight from Daniel Kahneman, who originated that concept of system one and system two thinking is that our brains don’t like to be in system two. They greatly prefer to be in system one, operating more or less on autopilot. So the message for marketers there is if you’re really trying to sell using hard, rational arguments, occasionally you need to do that, of course, particularly in some B2B situations. But be aware that you’re pushing customers into a mode of thinking that they really don’t want to be in.
Jenn: So in the sides of the marketing, just so I understand, can impact whether or not we choose to buy something or whether or not we avoid it. Right. Because is it possible that we really, like a consumer might resonate really well with a marketing campaign? And on the flip side, maybe somebody doesn’t like the marketing campaign. Maybe they don’t like the brand ambassador that was used for whatever reason. So does it work kind of either way?
Roger: Well, sure. I think that we all have these sort of built in preferences and biases and so on. Some may be very specific, like, “Gee, I don’t like that particular actor, and now that he is endorsing this product, I really don’t like that product that much.” You know, I think that there’s a good example right now where people who might have otherwise bought a Tesla have not been amused by Musk’s somewhat erratic behavior lately and are turned off by the brand. So in some cases, it’s conscious where people say, “yes, well, I don’t like Elon Musk and I’m not going to buy,” in other cases, it’s just sort of lurking there in the background that that sort of positive valence you had toward the brand now is not quite as positive.
Kalli: You know, it’s so fascinating and definitely something I find myself doing, you know, whether it’s seeing someone that I like and I’m like, oh, I have to buy this or someone that I don’t like, and I try to avoid it because I don’t want to be associated with things that they’re associated with. But it’s such an interesting way to think about things that people don’t really, I think, understand how much neuromarketing goes into things. You’ve been an expert in the field for many years. Can you tell us how you fell into this career path?
Roger: Well, yeah, I would give you the very short version of it. I’ve been fascinated by it, even though I studied it as an engineer originally, then later got a business degree. I was always fascinated by advertising, and even in undergrad school, I took a course in the psychology of advertising. So even then, apparently, this was a sort of a lurking interest for me that got abandoned for years and years. But then, about 20 years ago, I saw the fields of neuroscience and marketing coming together. I certainly wasn’t the only person to see that. There are already a few early neuromarketing companies launched, but I did what any good digital marketer would do. I grabbed a domain in neurosciencemarketing.com and I started writing there. And to my surprise that writing got traction. People were interested in the topic and I continued to devote time to that. Eventually, that led to my first book deal with Wiley, which was “Brainfuence,” and I’ve been basically writing about the topic and speaking about it ever since.
Jenn: So back to the book, because I love that, and I want to learn a little bit more about the inspiration behind it. But before there was one concept that I thought was very intriguing. As I was reading, you mentioned priming, which means marketers can influence consumers by implementing subtle clues into their campaigns, which essentially impacts consumer buyer habits. Can you elaborate on this a little bit more and maybe give some examples? Because I think marketing is sometimes very in-your-face, and we really don’t realize at times like, how influential some of those subtle context clues can be. So I’d love it if you could give us a little bit more detail and maybe give an example of when we would see this.
Roger: There’s been a lot of research on what’s called priming. And basically, that means exposing somebody to a cue that they don’t really recognize as being a queue of any kind. Consciously, they don’t process it as particularly important information, but then their subsequent behavior changes. One of the most fascinating experiments by John Barge, which I’m not sure if this one has been replicated or not. A few of the priming experiments haven’t replicated particularly well. But in one case, by giving people exposing people to words related to age, but not in an age-related context, but words like wrinkle and Florida and gray. They found that people then walked more slowly to the elevator after the experiment, that the people thought the experiment was over, but their speed was being measured. That’s kind of an extreme example, but I think a more useful example for marketers is an experiment by Dan Ariely, where he asked people to write down the last two digits of their Social Security number, which basically, in the US, it’s a random two digit number. And so did this with classes of students. And then ask them to estimate the price of something that would be rather unfamiliar to them. In this case, I think he used a computer keyboard, which most people don’t buy very often, so they wouldn’t know how much it cost. And what he found was interesting. The people with higher Social Security numbers, I’ll say, from 80 to 99, estimated a much higher price for the keyboard than those in the lowest bracket. And actually, each bracket, as you moved upwards, estimated a higher price. So, merely thinking about that bigger number caused the people to think that the keyboard would likely cost a little bit more. There’s a lot of examples of priming out there. Robert Sheldon’s book “Persuasion” is in part about priming how what you do before you attempt to persuade somebody can have a big impact on whether that persuasion works.
Jenn: So I guess depending on your IQ number, you might do better on prices, right, than some other people?
Roger: Well, it really does nothing to do with IQ so much as just…
Jenn: Oh! I meant Social Security number. I don’t know why I said IQ.
Roger: Right. Well, we’re all smart people here, so we want to think about IQ as well. Well, you see, normally you wouldn’t think about your social, though. But by simply being asked, I mean, you could have used anything you could have handed out, you know, little cards with two-digit numbers on them and produced essentially the same result. But this was probably less work for him because they just write down their own numbers and be random. But it’s a fascinating thing that people can be influenced by these unconscious factors. And what happens next? Their behavior changes.
Kalli: That is fascinating, and it’s really crazy to think about. So here’s my question. Taking that into consideration that you can manipulate people like really subconsciously, what are the ethical considerations that companies should be aware of when utilizing these neuromarketing techniques?
Roger: Certainly, ethics are important. And one thing, if you listen to Bob Cialdini speak or read his writings, you know about every 20th word is ethical or some synonym for that. Because if you are doing things in a way that causes the customer to make choices that are not favorable to the customer, then that is unethical. It’s manipulation. One expert that I like to cite on this topic is Zig Ziglar, who is probably the most famous salesperson of all time, and he wrote a book. He wrote a lot of books, and one of them was something like 20 Ways to Close a Sale, which sounds manipulative.
I mean, there’s the presumptive close. Well, we do like this delivered on Tuesday or Wednesday, you know, basically assuming that the customer has already decided to buy it. Or, should we write you up for red or green? And but basically, Zig Ziglar felt that if you were getting the customer to a better place, if the next day and two days later and a week later, they were still going to feel good about that choice than helping them make that choice was not manipulation. It was good for the customer and of course, good for the company and the salesperson. On the other hand, if you were manipulating them into doing something that they would regret almost instantly or very soon, then, in fact, you shouldn’t do that. Zig Ziglar… one of his best quotes, I think, is that as a salesperson or marketer, I guess your most important tool for persuasion is your own integrity. And again, that’s what he meant: are you getting the customer to a better place? If you are, that’s fine. If it’s not good for the customer, don’t do it. And there’s certainly a lot of unethical manipulation out there. Well, Cellini has a principle called scarcity. For example, when something is in short supply, it seems more desirable to us, and it creates urgency that we need to act now. And, you know, you can use scarcity in an ethical way if you have only five spots left in your workshop and you say that, that’s fine. On the other hand, I remember a company that I visited their website once. I don’t know if they’re still in business or not, but they had this gigantic sale expiring at midnight and everything was marked down, and there’s a countdown timer showing that everything was all the sale prices were going to be gone at midnight, definitely creating that scarcity and urgency. But when I went back to the next day, everything was the same. There was still that same sale that was expiring at midnight. So, that would be unethical manipulation. Some one. I’m going to bring up one other ethical topic, too. Most companies that provide neuromarketing services, that is, they will do studies for companies using some of the technologies that I mentioned, like EEG. Most of them will not work with minors. In other words, they won’t try and create ads designed to persuade minors simply because their brains aren’t fully developed, and they are more persuadable and more subject to manipulation than, presumably, a more critically thinking adult.
Jenn: Yeah, right. That makes sense. I was going to say before, as I see that, Kalli, you probably see this too, because I do a lot of online shopping and I’ll put something in the cart and it’ll say only five left, you know, purchase now. And I’ve never in my time actually checked out and not been able to purchase the item because it was sold out. So I definitely think it’s a ploy to get the consumer a little nervous, like, oh, I really want this, or I better buy it. I better just like finish up and purchase the item because it’s going fast, which I don’t know if that’s actually happening.
Roger: Well, that’s what they want you to do. In fact, there was one study which is not exactly a priming thing, but one study found that simply putting a countdown timer on an e-commerce sales page where the timer was for next-day shipping or something, or next-day delivery, that timer actually increased sales by 15%, I think. So even though it wasn’t related to the product going away, even that created enough urgency to drive some sales. But, you know, I think most physical e-commerce companies, I believe, use scarcity in a legitimate way.
Amazon, for example, occasionally you will see a product that says, hey, there’s only five left. And I know I’ve monitored this on, for instance, my books on Amazon. And it all seems very legitimate because most of the time, you don’t see that notice. Every now and then, you do, and occasionally, you see it creeping down towards zero. And then suddenly, yeah, there aren’t any left. So, you know, I think that at least Amazon and most other large e-commerce companies use it in an honest and legitimate way. I think some travel websites are probably a little bit more manipulative, where whenever you look at a hotel price for you, you’ll see that there’s only one room left at this price. And funny, if you come back the next day, even if you book that room, you’re probably going to find one at either that price or a very similar price. And there’s some kind of ethical workarounds that these companies use, like maybe the next price is a very minor difference, or they’ve only been allocated a certain number of rooms, but then they can go back and get more allocated from the hotel. So, I mean, there’s some ethical workarounds. But still, to me, that’s sort of pushing the boundary of ethical use of scarcity. It’s really designed to get the customer to act right now.
Jenn: But when I’m shopping and, like, I’m buying a 14.99 tank top on Target, I’m like, all right, come on. Like, I don’t think there’s an urgency here.
Roger: No, I mean, I would be more mindful of sites that may not be quite as trustworthy as a major brand. The major brands, you know, they’re going to get caught if they keep doing bad stuff. But, you know, smaller companies might be able to get away with it for a longer time.
Jenn: Yeah, that’s a fair point. And I think, you know, you’re right. Having like that ticker, you know, on top of the website like a countdown or that, hey, this is going fast. You better buy it now. Or all very effective forms of getting people to act quickly. One thing that I really liked in your book is you reiterate the power of nostalgia, and you have even believed that using paper for emotion is something that resonates today with consumers in a digital world. I’d love to know a little bit more about how you think a company can successfully implement this technique.
Roger: Sure, and I’d focus maybe more on the paper versus the digital side of things than the nostalgia. Nostalgia is its own kind of thing, and it can create appeal for a particular kind of product, food products, and such. In particular, you know, instead of oatmeal cookies, grandma’s special recipe, oatmeal cookies, and so on. But I think the paper versus digital space is more interesting because everything is digital these days. All of our ads are digital now. Marketing is digital. We used to be digital marketing, and now it’s just marketing. But paper still holds a special power. A few years ago, at Rutgers University, they did a study exposing people to ads, and they showed them digital ads and then same-size ads on a card. And they tried to as much as they could, make the two situations identical in appearance and size and everything. And what they found was that paper lit up people’s brains a little bit more. And there’s probably a sensory play here to, you know, where if you’re just looking at a screen, you’re seeing it. On the other hand, if you are holding a, say, a postcard with the same ad on it, you not only are seeing it, but you’re feeling it. And particularly if you can, you know, as a marketer, add some texture, some quality, you know, if you compare, say, a paper and quality and presentation of a wedding invitation versus a cheap postcard, those are going to be two very different experiences, and the one is going to be more engaging. One thing that I did, for instance, on the cover of my more recent book, friction, the publisher put a slightly bumpy coating on it. I wanted to sandpaper coding, but it didn’t quite turn out like sandpaper. But it is bumpy, bumpy. And when people take the book, you can tell they feel it. And a significant number will say, oh, friction when they feel that. Same for my business cards. They have a actually a little sandpaper y clear strip over the word friction that adds some additional sensory input into what’s otherwise kind of a pedestrian thing, you know, just a business card. But, you know, in general, if you want to have more emotional impact, paper can do that. Of course, paper is likely more expensive, so you want to use it judiciously.
Kalli: I definitely agree with that. And I think it’s really interesting that you talk about like physical touch. And you know, obviously it makes a big difference being in person and online. So, I’m wondering if you can also touch on how marketers can influence consumers. You know, face to face? I know we talked a lot about timers and creating a sense of urgency, but when you’re in a store, or you’re, you know, a salesperson, you’re talking to someone you know, can you elaborate a little bit more on how that side of things works and provide maybe a couple of examples for our listeners. Sure.
Roger: I think if you’re in the same environment, you and particularly if it’s an environment you control, it’s your office, your store or whatever. There’s a lot you can do. Many stores use scent, for example. It can be subtle, or it can be kind of overwhelming, depending on your market. And that creates a certain mood for customers. You can use music. In some cases, this can be almost overbearing, along with the overbearing sense, but in other cases, it can be pretty subtle. For instance, one study found that when French music was played in a wine store, more French wine was sold. When it was switched to German music, more German wine was sold. So, I mean, these are very subtle things that probably most people didn’t even perceive. It was just sort of part of the background. And there’s a whole host of things you can do. Also, if you’re in person. One study found if you give somebody a warm beverage to hold, like a cup of hot coffee, and not too hot that it burns their hands. But. But it’s warm. They will perceive you as being warmer somehow. This warmth in the hands translates into a perception that you are a warmer person. There is another example. And this. This probably has to be used judiciously these days because everybody’s pretty sensitive about touch. But if somebody put their hand lightly on the shoulder of another person, they were more likely to get compliance with the requests they made. They were a little bit more persuasive when that touch existed. But of course, you want to use that judiciously. Some people are not open to being touched at all.
Jenn: Interesting. I’ll try that with my husband. When I want him to buy me something, just slightly touch his shoulder. Good advice. Lastly, I just want to hear your thoughts about the future of neuromarketing. What are some of the emerging trends that you’re seeing and where do you think the field is heading in the next decade?
Roger: I think the big thing in the future, and actually the future is here to some degree. During the pandemic, what happened was neuromarketing labs had to shut down completely. You couldn’t bring people into a laboratory setting and wire them up and do tests on them. And this really accelerated the development of other technologies that don’t require laboratory experiments. And that had the benefit of making these same kinds of tests much, much, much cheaper. So, for instance, eye tracking used to be primarily done in a lab setting using tools like either very expensive glasses or very expensive sensors to give an accurate representation of where people’s eyes were looking so they could be looking at a print ad, they could be looking at a video, and this would provide the information of what they were looking at. And this could be used in conjunction with other data about their emotional state and such, but or just by itself, to make sure people were looking at what you hoped they would look at when they looked at your ad. But now, this can be done using device cams. Such things like laptop cameras, mobile phone cameras, and tablet cameras can also do eye tracking. It is not quite as precise as the lab stuff, but it’s certainly better than nothing. And it’s it can help you make a decision where you really need, you know, some information, even if it’s not the most accurate possible information, because these tests can be very inexpensive. In fact, now there is even AI predictive eye tracking. In other words, you can give an eye and there’s about 3 or 4 different companies at least that offer this service. And it’s offered as a SaaS service. So you just sign up for it and subscribe, and you can, you know, plug in your print ads, your videos, and whatever you want. And using AI, it will predict where real humans will look. And the typical process for creating these has been to feed thousands of human eye-tracking studies into a machine learning program and then test it against additional human studies. And the companies that offer these services claim 90% and even 95% end up accuracy. Again, you know, these are not going to be as reliable as one done in a lab with expensive equipment, but the one done in the lab is going to cost lots and lots of money. You’re going to have to recruit subjects and so on where this can be done in a matter of minutes. You could run multiple tests in half an hour as you optimize something or change the design. Run it again.
Jenn: Wow. All of that is incredible. That’s really exciting. And I think that is a testament to myself and Kalli as well as our listeners: next time you’re influenced to purchase something, think long and hard. Why? It’s very possible. Roger, your expertise was heard and implemented into the bread’s marketing strategy. So, thank you so, so much for joining us today. It was so fun to explore the science and the art behind marketing with you.
Roger: Well, thanks so much for having me on the show. It’s been a lot of fun.
Jenn: Of course, and as always, a shout out to our listeners for tuning in every other Wednesday and showing support on social media. We see you and appreciate the impressionable community we’ve established. See what I did there? Till next time, marketers.
